Hello everyone…hope we’re going have some really interesting questions and comments this evening about the wonderful world of Professional Ethics! Anybody care to start us off…?
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Neil Arnott Evening Barry…feeling ethical tonight?
Barry de Graff Always Neil. My middle name…
Neil Arnott Glad to hear it!
Natasha Everard So what is the most common pitiful when sitting your PETH assessment?
Neil Arnott I think one of the main issues we find when assessing PETH is that students KNOW what they are trying to say but they don’t always express themselves clearly – or in enough detail
Neil Arnott This is particularly true when it comes to “EXPLAIN” or “DESCRIBE” questions…there’s often 5 or 6 marks available so you need to make 5 or 6 ‘points’ to ear those marks
Neil Arnott Earn those marks…not ear them!
Neil Arnott Lots of students are put off by PETH because of the writing – is there anyone out there who hates it as a subject? Or even anyone who actually likes it??
Diana Reid Lovelock I am studying Level 3 and I haven’t really started PETH yet. Why do people in the group get so worried?
Diana Reid Lovelock Sorry that crossed over with Neil’s last comment
Paula Rutter I loved it
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Neil Arnott Hi DIina – thanks for joining us. I think Professional Ethics probably has a ‘bad name’ among students because it is subjective (there often isn’t a “right” or “wrong” answer) and because it’s quite wordy at times
Diana Reid Lovelock You have to wait for it to be marked?
Neil Arnott Hi Paula…good for you!!! Did you find it very different to other units you studied?
Paula Rutter hmm found it lots to remember and very wordy
but just break it down into chunks
and don’t let the negativity get to you
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Natasha Everard Amy Scott here smile emoticon
Amy Scott I tend to get mixed up with integrity and professional behaviour, any tips?
Sonya Clague Ashbarry It’s like marmite – for tutors too.
Rekha Solanki Chauhan studying level 3 but haven’t started PETH. Any tips ?
Neil Arnott Yes Diana the assessment is marked by your training provider. This is because you will need to include written answers in your own words – which the AAT marking software can’t cope with. But that’s a good thing as it lets you earn lots of marks for showing off your knowledge!!
Zoe Calverley I’ve just started level 3 and started with PETH having heard the horror stories to get it out of the way, but I’m quite enjoying it really. The studying it isn’t difficult, it’s the remembering it all!
Amy Scott Do you have to remember all the objectives?
Diana Reid Lovelock So you need the gist of it rather than verbatim? Obviously with the numbers, there’s only one right answer
Neil Arnott Hi Amy…Integrity means being open and honest with people. If you’ve seen the news this week with the Panama scandal (Mossack Fonseca) that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of integrity! Professional Behaviour means doing all the things you would expect a professional to do – if you saw your doctor getting drunk, or stealing from patients, you wouldn’t be too impressed! It’s the same for accountants
Sonya Clague Ashbarry We’ve had a lot of positive feedback about ethics.
Neil Arnott Amy – yes – Five Objectives – remember PCIOP – it can help!
Carly Barnes My students found ICPOP good to remember as in ice lolly smile emoticon
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Neil Arnott Rekha – start by learning the 5 fundamental principles and then you can apply these to any situation – they provide a guiding framework for accountants to act by at all times
Amy Scott Yes but like when the question says in a scenario the customer is willing to pay you extra like for exaggerating the profits is that integrity or professional behaviour?
Tamara Salter I have left PETH to last for my Level 3 and I currently around a third of the way through. Like people have previously said I am finding it very wordy & lot to remember. What are the common mistakes that students make in their PETH assessments?
Neil Arnott Diana – there are often marks available for an exact definition – and it is often the easiest way to answer a question. But if you can’t remember something then give as much detail as you can – you can always explain your answers in PETH!
Amy Scott Can you breakdown pciop please
Neil Arnott Amy – it can be both – and often it is more than one principle. In fact, I would argue that breaching ANY fundamental principle is in itself breaching Professional Behaviour – so that’s a really handy get-out in an exam!
Neil Arnott Amy – Professional Competence and Due Care, Integrity, Objectivity, Confidentiality, Professional Behaviour
Ileana Constantinescu Just started Level 2 but I find these discussions very useful. Well done for organising them. Sorry I can’t contribute yet, I am a beginner, but I’ll get there.
Neil Arnott Ileana – stick with us – it’s all useful and you do cover some ethics in your WEAF unit!
Neil Arnott Tamara – common mistakes are not to include enough detail when the questions asks you to explain or describe something. In these questions it’s not enough to simply state an answer – you need to provide more detail. And often a single question can have more than one correct answer – but you often need to explain your reasoning to pick up full marks
Neil Arnott Amy – if you were offered extra money to fiddle the books – what would you do and why?
Neil Arnott Zoe – sorry I missed you…glad it’ sgoing well! Any top tips so far for other students??
Neil Arnott Hi Sonya – I like the Marmite description – although I hate Marmite but I am rather fond of ethics!
Amy Scott Oh sorry Neil I know them like the back of my hand I meant the objectives of the accounting profession I. E mastering of particular skills- do I have to remember them for the exam?
Brenda Moore I have just sat my PETH exam today and found it tough. The questions were not what I was expecting. Or I should say not worded or laid out the way the mock exams have been. Including the AAT mock exam.
Diana Reid Lovelock That’s useful info
Brenda Moore Diana Reid Lovelock I must admit I don’t like this subject and thought I was prepared (hopefully scraped through) but not what I was expecting if that makes sense?
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Sonya Clague Ashbarry Hi Neil – the tip we provide is when asked to explain students need to say what the answer is but then back it up I.e. Why is you answer right. The technique we recommend is ‘the answer is….because……’ As a rough guide! Often we only get ‘the answer is’. So that’s why students don’t earn the credit available.
Amy Scott I would turn it down, it is against my integrity! And moral ethics to accept it
Neil Arnott Ah sorry – you certainly need to be aware of them as they do crop up. I wouldn’t worry too much about word for word…but the basic objectives (eg mastering of skills, objective outlook, working to highest standards of conduct and performance etc) are certainly required
Neil Arnott Absolutely spot on Sonya – top tip there everyone! Because, because because!!
Neil Arnott Pleased to hear it Amy – and that is what professional ethics is all about – doing the ‘right’ thing. It just provides a framework for you to base your decisions on when you could be tempted down the wrong path
Natasha Everard what changes may be in store for PETH in the new standards…if any?
Neil Arnott My other top tip (for all exams) is RTBQ
Diana Reid Lovelock Yes indeed!
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Amy Scott Rtbq?
Sonya Clague Ashbarry Oh my Natasha Everard big question .
Neil Arnott Do we all know what RTBQ means…….
Amy Scott No!
Zoe Calverley My only tip would be to find your own way to remember it, however random it may be, if it works for you, use it! I use a lot of erm, not acronyms, I can’t remember the word, but like this for example. knowledge About All Stuff Easily Comes Calling a Little Too Late – Knowledge accountants must keep up to date is changes to Accounting and Audit Standards, changes to Ethical Codes, changes to relevent Criminal Law, and changes to Tax Legislation. I have lots of these for various bits to remember, and then have these sayings written all over my bedroom wall!
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Diana Reid Lovelock Mnenonic
Neil Arnott Briliant Zoe!
Zoe Calverley Diana Reid Lovelock That’s the one!
Diana Reid Lovelock There’s a good one in the Osborne book for the principles ‘Popular People Chat In Ofiices’
Zoe Calverley I just remember PIPCO said literally as it’s spelt. I have loads of mnemonics, just working on remembering the meanings for them all now.
Paula Rutter 3 peas in a pod
people
profit …See more
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Natasha Everard read the blxxdy question
Amy Scott Indeed state and describe!
Neil Arnott AQ2016 is doing away with a specific ethics exam but it will be tested as part of the synoptic exam which will come at the end of your level 3. Most of the content is similar (after all ethics doesn’t change just because AAT have some new standards out!) but there is a little bit less of the background stuff perhaps. Big focus on money laundering
Neil Arnott Yep, Read The Bl**dy Question – so many students drop so many marks just be mis reading what the question is asking for
Natasha Everard i have that syndrome!!! lol.
Sonya Clague Ashbarry In the new standards PETH has been cleverly (and rightly) woven into each unit as Neil Arnott said. I looked at this today. So the questions will be more relevant to what you’re learning about. An example might be a question on preparing a VAt return followed by an ethical question about perhaps deliberately not accounting for a ‘small’ error.
Neil Arnott Most / many students do Natasha Everard!
Neil Arnott I quite like the look of the synoptics Sonya Clague Ashbarry – will be a challenge but a good test of students’ competency
Natasha Everard So ideally when should a level 3 study PETH at the beginning, middle or end of their level?
Sonya Clague Ashbarry You’re right! I think AAT has done a great job on them. Won’t be easy to predict what’s coming. It will be quite a change for sure.
Diana Reid Lovelock With a bit of luck us lot will be done before that comes in smile emoticon
Emma Louise Smith I used to use ‘popic’ to help remember.
Barry de Graff The synoptics will be quite like the challenges an accountant faces daily…
Neil Arnott Under AQ 2013 most students leave it towards the end – which is reasonable as it is a stand alone unit. In AQ2016 I think we’ll need to look at drip feeding it in – although the assessment will be at the end
Ileana Constantinescu I am a teacher, I think it helps. Even if PETH is completely unknown to me now, my understanding is that you need to explain your answers as you do when you teach to primary school children. They always ask you why this, why that. I am not sure learning definitions by heart is a good idea, but understanding them and reformulating with your own words.
Sonya Clague Ashbarry That’s it, it’s back to basics.
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Neil Arnott Emma – you say POPIC, I say PCIOP……..both work just as well! So long as you remember them come the assessment you’ll be fine!
Zoe Calverley I use PIPCO, just to throw a third in there
Paula Rutter lols pipco and assif
doesn’t matter as long as u guys remember it
flashcards are a good tool to carry around
Zoe Calverley I have flashcards galore and peth posters have redecorated one wall of my bedroom! There’s no way I’m failing peth and having to sit it twice!
Paula Rutter good girl
Neil Arnott If you have a smartphone or iPad or similar – you could always try recording yourself speaking out loud key definitions etc- then listen back to them in the bath / in the car / at bedtime etc
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Amy Scott I understand that bit I just tend to explain it how I see it not how the tutor sees it!
Sonya Clague Ashbarry In the synoptic the ethics code of practise appears to be provided in summary form too. I think that’s a good move as we should test application of the code rather than memorising it. Students will still need to learn it thoroughly though.
Sonya Clague Ashbarry That’s AQ2016 of course.
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Diana Reid Lovelock I worked as a school bursar for 19 years and clerk to the governors so a lot of that follows
Neil Arnott If you are describing ethical actions then your tutor should be able to read between the lines to an extent. It is unlikely you will remember everything word for word, Make the ethical decision and then back it up – using the 5 principles where you can
Neil Arnott Yes the COde of Ethics appears in the assessment, much like the tax tables etc and the VAT guide do now. A good move in my opinion
Amy Scott I just get confused which scenario relates to which principle. In my eyes integrity, objectivity and professional behaviour are very similar and I struggle to pick which one
Zoe Calverley agree!
Neil Arnott It isn’t always straightforward – and what I might think of as being integrity you could argue is objectivity. Moral or ethical decisions can’t be simply pigeonholed like that in any case. But there is some ‘slack’ within the marking which allows an as…See more
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Neil Arnott anybody with real work experience will have experienced how ethics impinges on everyday decisions and judgement – most of us act ethically without even having to think about it. It when temptation lies in the way (or other threats such as intimidation) that we may be tempted to stray…
Natasha Everard So does anyone else have any further questions??
Zoe Calverley Neil if a question asked eg “which two principles does *** affect?” And we answered with integrity because… objectivity because… and professional behaviour because… as long as we back up all three answers, would we get the marks, even if only two of them were correct?
Amy Scott Yes can you extend my brain so I can remember it all?!
Amy Scott Good question Zoellick
Amy Scott Zoe! Blasted auto correct!
Zoe Calverley Don’t worry about it, I’ve heard worse!
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Neil Arnott If the question said “Give examples of” then you would get marks. However, the model answers usually give a choice of three in that situation. However, if the question specifically STATES give two then you should only give two – in this case you would be marked on the first two answers you put – don’t waste time writing a third if the question says give two
Amy Scott See what if I put objectivity instead of integrity? I lose the mark because I see it as objectivity instead?
Neil Arnott No – if there are three possible answers (eg integrity, objectivity and prof behaviour) you would get full marks whichever two you put (so long as you explained fully). Obviously if one of your two answers is wrong then you wouldn’t get marks for it but if you can make a reasonable case for it you should be rewarded
Amy Scott But if it says state then I shouldn’t describe?
Neil Arnott But there is no point putting three answers if the question specifically states two – because the marker is only allowed to take your first two answers into account
Neil Arnott You’re right Amy – sorry – typing too quickly! If it says “State two” then you should state just two – the model answer may allow any two from 3 or 4. If its says describe/explain two – then again, you need to describe or explain two – but no more. But the model answer may allow any two from 3 or 4 to be correct – so Integrity and Objectivity may be just as corect as Objectivity and Professional Behaviour
Ileana Constantinescu Like in any exam/ assessment/ test- read the question, understand the task and do not overdo the answer. Be specific. Do what you are asked to do. If you provide more than asked, you do not get extra marks, but you waste time. Focus and do exactly what required.
Neil Arnott Better than any advice I could give Ileana!
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Amy Scott OK thanks this has helped. Wish me luck for the 16th
Zoe Calverley Good luck for 16th!
Amy Scott Thanks have you booked your exam?
Zoe Calverley Meant to do it Monday. Damn school holidays I’ve been too busy keeping the kids apart! Might get round to it tomorrow if I put a DVD on…
Amy Scott I know what you mean!
Rekha Solanki Chauhan Good Luck Amy
Amy Scott Thanks here’s hoping kaplan are better at projects then the one I did cpag with
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Ileana Constantinescu Good luck Amy!
Neil Arnott Very good luck for the 16th – I’m sure you’ll be fine!
Ileana Constantinescu Good luck everyone and many thanks indeed, Neil Arnott
Neil Arnott Have I missed anybody’s comments/questions? I’ve been typing so fast there’s steam coming off the keyboard!
Diana Reid Lovelock Only that Brenda Moore said the real exam today wasn’t like the practice ones frown emoticon
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Sonya Clague Ashbarry Good session Neil Arnott and Natasha Everard. Thanks for sharing.
Tamara Salter Thank you for this, I have taken a lot of good points from this session smile emoticon
Neil Arnott Thanks Sonya – thanks for your input
Sonya Clague Ashbarry Neil Arnott you’re welcome. Please be there for mine
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Neil Arnott One other tip – watch the news. Many students forget that ethics is important in real life as well as in AAT world. Loads of news stories can be linked to ethics – FIFA, Panama, MPs, bankers etc etc
Ileana Constantinescu We live in an unethical world, unfortunately. Let’s turn it into an advantage and learn from it.
Neil Arnott Spot on. Just because those at the ‘top’ of the tree think they can get away with it (and unfortunately often do) doesn’t mean everybody should!
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Neil Arnott Brenda – sorry I missed your comment. Was there anything in particular you felt was ‘off the wall’??
Natasha Everard Thank you all for attending this evening. A special thanks for Neil Arnott for answering all the questions and with a little assistance fromSonya Clague Ashbarry from Eagle Education!
Sonya Clague Ashbarry The AAT state that sample assessments are just that – a way to familiarise yourself with the method rather than the content. You need to have a thorough understanding of the topics to be adequately prepared as AAT can test anything in any way. It’s impossible to predict what could be tested.
Diana Reid Lovelock But in the other exams the format is virtually identical to AAT samples
Sonya Clague Ashbarry Diana Reid Lovelock I know – that’s one of our complaints. Sometimes it’s not and it really throws students.
Neil Arnott But you must remember most of the other units are ‘number crunching’ – so the format of questions can look very similar. Ethics is more subjective – but essentially the same things will be tested…the fundamental principles, the safegurads and threats, legiclation etc. The actual questions may differ from the sample but the coverage of what is tested is usually similar
Brenda Moore That’s what I found today
Nisha Shah That exactly my complaint. The sample questions are different layouts to what we shown in the book.
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Neil Arnott You’re welcome Natasha – enjoyed it! Don’t forget I’m back next week with an ISYS Q&A
Amy Scott Thank you Neil Arnott. Really helpful and great timing
Ileana Constantinescu Thank you Natasha Everard
Diana Reid Lovelock Thanks everybody and Natasha Everard as always, this group is a great support for those of us studying at home
Brenda Moore To be honest Neil I cannot specify one thing. All I can say is that tasks 5-9 are all very similar in mock exams but exam today was different. Won’t know how I did until I get my results and yes agree with everything said that you need to be prepared for any variation. All I would say is don’t get complacent with layout
Neil Arnott Agree totally with that Brenda – most Level 4 exams also have written tasks and students often say they don’t resemble the mocks – but then if they did everybody would just learn the model answers for the mocks off by heart and then recite them – which…See more
Neil Arnott Best of luck Brenda Moore – fingers crossed for good news!
Brenda Moore Thank you. Even if I’ve scraped through this exam I will be happy. Give me numbers any day haha
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Neil Arnott Many thanks again to everyone for contributing – great session!
Sonya Clague Ashbarry It was and may I compliment you on your style! Clearly my type of tutor
Luke Booker Hey, sorry I know this is late. I couldn’t make it earlier as I was revising for my PETH exam which happens to me tomorrow morning!! Just wondering if there’s any last minute tips I can take in to the exam? I am pretty comfortable with the knowledge of PETH. I struggle putting it into writing that conforms to the AAT’s marking criteria. Many thanks
Neil Arnott Hi Luke – I’d read through the comments above. Keep your answers clear and concise – don’t waffle, but if the question needs you to explain or describe make sure you do – don’t just give a 3/4 word answer! And where you can refer your answers specifically to the fundamental principles. Good luck!
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